Max Dundas, Dundas Communications’ Founder

15 years ago, I landed a job at Freud’s - a London PR agency founded and led by Mathew Freud. At the time, I had little work experience and no real grasp of ‘leadership’ or the type of leader I wanted to work for – but I was lucky. I remember how Max made me and everyone on his team feel: valued, energised, part of something exciting and always motivated to go above and beyond. He was (is) a great leader.

Now running several businesses under The Dundas Group and delivering high-profile marketing campaigns and consultation for celebrities, brands, charities and high-profile CEOs, Max has tremendous experience and perspective on how to navigate difficult decisions, making yourself visible in an organisation, and managing emotional situations at work.

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1.     Big brand clients, celebrity besties, glamorous media events and a growing PR/Communications business… it sounds like a dream gig, Max. How did it all start?

Ego, fluke and lies!! Just kidding… but it was a little bit by fluke…

I went to university and didn't work at all hard…I got a terrible degree in Ancient History but I had a fun time and, looking back, I didn't go into it in a kind of studious way; I went into it to recover from boarding school, to have a bit of life experience and to just grow up.  Boarding school is very sheltered; you're given your schedule every day and then you just do that... So, when I came out of university, l just clicked into a work mode of like, ‘Okay, I've had three years doing whatever I want to do and now I really want to work hard and I want to get my head down and I want to earn money.’ But I really didn't want to be a History teacher so I thought I’d try marketing, PR, events and advertising and careers in that area…I thought maybe I’d be alright at something based in that area of work.

My first job was Freuds. I did two weeks there as a freebie – just doing work experience and making cups of tea etc. And then at the end, they called me in and said, “we'd really like you to work here but we don't have a job at the moment – so let’s keep in touch.” So, I left there and literally the next day I sent them an email asking if I could pop in…telling them that I had another interview down the road (which I didn't!). I went in the next day wearing a suit and I told them that I really wanted to work for them but this other opportunity down the road was offering a bit more money and I was probably going to take it because I really needed a job…

And then they found me a job! And I ended up staying there for 11 years, loving pretty much every day of being there!

 2.     What stands out about those early years working at freuds/with Matthew Freud?

I loved freuds…and still do! It’s such a thrilling, dynamic company. I learnt a lot and I just fell in love with the industry too. I worked hard on my job and PR-ing myself internally (I was very ambitious and probably very precocious). Very very quickly I found my groove there and I was good at my job (which was lovely for the ego because I’d always been sooooo average as a student), so it was exciting!

Matthew Freud was this kind of mysterious character who sat at the top of the building with the whole company, rightly, pretty much in complete awe of him. I just wanted to break that down straight away and wanted to talk to him, get to know him, get in front of him. So again, it was probably really precocious, but as an Account Assistant I would just go and see Matthew and say: ‘Hey, I’m working on this campaign and I'm stuck with this challenge. What do you think?’ He was always really welcoming and generous with his time. We developed a relationship which, I like to think, we still have now: he is an extraordinary brain and an extraordinary person within the industry and still someone I still seek advice from.  

3.     The idea of ‘PR-ing yourself’ at work is something many people struggle with – what tips and/or experience can you share on that?

I would say, don't assume that PR-ing yourself and getting in front of really senior people is a bad thing and that they won't have time or want to hear from you. It's the opposite, I’ve found. Communication and dialogue are really important.

I always want to connect with everyone that works for me and to hear their points of view… and hear where they’re struggling…and hopefully try to help them… and hear what stuff they love working on…it’s invaluable! I’d much rather have a dialogue and relationship with someone on my team than someone be anonymous. So, I guess, the advice is to not feel fear. Being ambitious and PR-ing yourself and pushing yourself within whatever industry you’re in will be welcomed and will eventually only be of benefit to you and the wider company.

4.     What else can you tell me about your style or approach as a leader?

It’s pretty democratic …. When a piece of new business comes in or we get invited to pitch for something, I'll talk to the team and we'll make a decision together. Sometimes stuff comes in that I'm not that interested in, but then there's one person who tells me I’m mad and that we should definitely do it, so we’ll go for it – and I’ll let them run it. It works really well because I want people to work on things that they feel passionate about.

When I started out with my own company, I was on my own in an office and I hated it because it was so lonely. I hired people very quickly because I wanted a discussion and because I wanted to fill the bits that I find difficult with other people that were really good in those specific areas. I have ADHD (only diagnosed in the last two years or so); I'm very high-functioning for someone with ADHD and the reason that I am is that, all my life, I've subconsciously hired people and worked with people that are very different from me and who bring different skills so that I can feel relaxed and do what I'm good at doing – because I know the other stuff is covered.

 5.     Managing the reputation of your clients and working closely with the media, I'm sure you've dealt with your fair share of issues over the years – how do you manage those stressful situations?

I love all our clients as work colleagues but also as friends and so it can be very emotional when going through problems by their side. But, to answer your question, there are some things that I try to keep front of mind when I’m dealing with a crisis situation…

- I try to take the emotion out of it: I have got better at that as I've got older; and with more experience comes more realisation that it probably will be okay in the end, and we will find a solution. You know, clients pay us for practical and experienced advice and so you need to be the one in that moment that is being brave and not being afraid to tackle the problem head-on; not afraid to say and make recommendations that are not necessarily the easiest thing but are definitely the right thing.

- Maintaining a strong and good moral compass and looking at practical solutions that are going to help with the problem.

- For me, internally, remembering that I'm there as a consultant and that I'm there to offer advice, be a shoulder to cry on and to help facilitate a solution. It's not a problem that is happening to me – it’s happening to the client (albeit someone who’s probably a good friend as well!). And I think, because of the relationship being so strong with the clients, sometimes I tend to take that onto myself …. But I have made myself remember more recently that it's not something that should be all-encompassing in my own life and that I also have other responsibilities to my wife and children – and that’s especially true when it comes to working at the weekend. If you get overwhelmed by the emotion of someone else’s problem, then ultimately you won’t do the best job at finding the solution that the client needs in that moment.

- Sharing the load: I try and not work in isolation. So, when there's a very bad problem and it's very stressful, we need to make sure that there are three or four of us dealing with it. I try to avoid sharing advice without properly working it through. Sometimes that needs more than one head so I like to stress-test my advice with the team and often they'll challenge me and say, “I don't think that's the right thing.” I don’t always agree with them, but I always value their perspective.

- And then there’s the usual stuff, like just trying to be healthy as that helps with stress. And I run all the time, like a wannabe Forrest Gump! I hate getting ready to do it but 100% of the time, if I run, I will (a) figure out the solution and (b) feel so much better. I don’t think you have to find the solution in the stressful moment. When I’m really stressed, I don’t think as clearly as I should, but generally when you go away and you’re not thinking about the problem, the solution will come…like when you’re brushing your teeth!

6.     You left a very senior role at one of the best-known PR firms in London to set-up Dundas Communications over 10 years ago - How did you make that decision and what would you say to others navigating similar transitions?

It was a really hard decision, but I knew that it was the right decision. I just was too wimpy to make it for about a year despite it rattling about in my mind for that amount of time. And then Christmas happened…and because everything shuts down, it just gave me the time to ask myself, ‘why are you NOT doing this? Just f***ing do it!’ And time to think: ‘What do I want for next year? Where am I going?’ And it suddenly clicked that I needed to challenge myself. I needed to feel scared again. I needed to feel like: ‘F**k, we've got to hustle!’ So, I jumped … and it was probably a tad cavalier (it was before my son was born and we were pregnant), there was a lot of stuff on the table, so it was a bit of a risk but my gut told me to do it and the gut, it turns out, knows its stuff.

Try to break down and identify the thing you're actually most worried about. ‘The company isn’t successful? Okay... what would that look like? What would I do then?’ I had an exit plan, anticipated all the different possible outcomes and then had answers for those. And… leave well: I wanted to be very respectful to Freuds and I wanted to leave on their terms and in a really friendly, nice way. And that has stood me in good stead because I am still friends with Matthew, and I really appreciate that. That was always very important to me. Its sounds obvious coming from a publicist, but reputation is king.  

7.     What or who has helped to influence this kind of approach or thought process?

I’m old, so I've had lots of experiences and learnt lots of things, and I've had a lot of therapy - and that is a really great thing. It helps me enormously as a publicist as well as a father and husband. Usually, my gut tells me when I need it or there will just come a moment where I feel like I just need to unpackage stuff and so I’ll go and do two or three months of therapy. Thinking and talking about things is immensely helpful and makes you realise who you are; what your strengths and weaknesses are, why you act in certain ways, how other people react to you… and, what is your moral code? What do you want to leave in the world?  

 To get in touch or find out more, visit Dundas Communications (part of The Dundas Group)